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DONNA CARBONE

Searching for common sense in the universe
Articles Posted: 90  Links Seeded: 7
Member Since: 12/2010  Last Seen: 2/19/2012

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When women lie about rape

Fri Jul 8, 2011 9:50 AM EDT
politics, rape, sexual-assault, dominique-strauss-kahn, victims-of-violent-crime, advocady-for-women, false-accusations-of-rape
By Donna Carbone
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From the moment the Dominique Strauss-Kahn accusations hit the newswire, I had my doubts. Call me jaded but with the number of false rape claims against the rich and famous in recent years, it stands to reason that someone with a yearning for increased wealth but not a willingness to work for it might see the man as a target. Understand, I am not saying he isn’t a sleaze. DSK might very well be the human incarnation of Jabba the Hutt, but unless and until that is proven, he is a man falsely accused of a heinous crime – one that can destroy his personal and professional life. If the charges against him are, indeed, proven false, they can also destroy every inroad women have made to bring legitimacy to charges of rape and hamper the prosecution and conviction of actual rapists.

Lest you think that this article is written in defense of Mr. Strauss-Kahn, let me reassure you that this is not my intent. He is merely the foundation for a post on a far worse crime – treason. Women can and often are their own worst enemy. To unjustly accuse a man, any man, of rape out of greed, revenge or narcissism (those 15 minutes of fame can be very tempting) is detrimental to society as a whole and women in particular.

As an advocate for real victims of sexual assault, I find such tactics almost as heinous as the crime of rape itself. Why? By lying, women are further victimizing those who have already been victimized.  Lying corrodes the still shaky foundation that has been set in place to make society aware that rape is not about sex and that the victim is not – never, ever – at fault. Unfortunately, if just one woman is found to be lying, suddenly, all women lie! Chalk it up to the guilt by association mindset and the need to pretend that mankind does not prey on weak and vulnerable among them.

I often attend professional luncheons where I mention my work on behalf of victims of sexual assault. I also tell people that I am a member of a local Human Trafficking Coalition. Let me tell you that, if you want to clear a room quickly, all you have to do is mention these two dark clouds. Where, just two seconds before my announcement, all eyes were riveted on me, heads suddenly lower and an imagined loose thread or food stain becomes the focus of attention. Recently, I asked to be the designated speaker at a women’s luncheon. The moderator’s response, “Oh, I like to keep these events lighthearted. Can you put a happy ending on that topic?” My answer, “Sure, every time a woman doesn’t die, that’s a happy ending. I’ll only talk about the rape victims who live. How’s that?” Denial is a weapon that will bury us – sometimes literally -- time and again!

I would like to disassociate myself from the less honorable of the female gender, but I doubt that those who thrive on sensationalism will let me off that easily. So, instead, I acknowledge that not everyone’s motives are pure – humans are a mixed bag of honorable and dishonorable character traits, after all -- and I stand proudly in support of women who have known the horror of rape, giving them the encouragement they need and deserve.

You might be wondering why I feel so strongly about this issue. Forty years ago, I was one of those women. Four years ago, my daughter joined the sisterhood. If ever there was a club no one should aspire to join, this is it. Since women do not voluntarily apply for membership, those who are forced onto its roster need to hold strong against anyone who would undermine their progress. That includes other women who use the accusation of rape for their own gains.

Let’s adopt the battle cry, “From victimized to victorious – nothing less will do.” Only the truth will allow us to achieve that goal.

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Donna Carbone

Women who lie about being raped undermine the efforts of those advocates and victims who fight daily to bring awareness of the horrendous nature of this crime. I am not saying that the female in question did rape -- we do not have all the facts -- but, if she did, shame on her!

  • 15 votes
#1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 9:53 AM EDT
ERich-356044

The Bristol Pain accusation comes to my mind as well. I agree with your whole article here Donna. To falsely accuse is just as heinous as the act of rape.

I am also a member of this club... and believe me, it stinks. I will stand with you and shout the battle cry.... “From victimized to victorious – nothing less will do.”

Excellent article. Thank you for this.

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
RV in GB#1

The Duke Lacrosse rape allegations come to mind for me (ERich, it is better to use an example where ACTUAL CHARGES WERE FILED.)

The big problem as Donna pointed out is that false accusations cause people to doubt future victims.

Human Trafficking is UNDER publicized, it is admirable that you are doing what you are doing Donna.

  • 10 votes
#1.2 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:36 PM EDT
Spikegary

Agreed RV, I don't think Bristol ever claimed rape or filed charges. This is not a silly political article.

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:47 PM EDT
ERich-356044

My apologies people ... not trying to bring in politics.

I think the Duke accusations are better for an example.

  • 7 votes
#1.4 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:48 PM EDT
Spikegary

Even in the Duke filing there are lessons to be learned-drinking heavily rarely has a great outcome-from hangovers to rape allegations. Hiring a stripper-you know nothing about him or her besides the obvious-in that case one would be much better off to to go as a group to a strip club.

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:56 PM EDT
margaret-1186258

Thank you, Donna. About a year ago, I was participating in a series of rape, and got lambasted by many for not raising the "reluctant loss of my virginity" to the level of rape. (And to think, I thought it was a funny story!) Women must rein in our need for attention and sympathy; we seem to be willing to "glom onto" any despicable deed just to show the world how worthy we are of adoration, sympathy, special attention, and kudos. I really think it's about time we got over ourselves (generally).

It diminishes and tarnishes the armor of the true survivor.

  • 8 votes
#1.6 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:27 PM EDT
Head-Negro

I think another example is the Kobe Bryant case also a hotel worker and charges where filed

gag order for the press and 20k for the alleged victim to pay her lawyers and such from the state

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:16 PM EDT
lastone

Kobe comes to mind.

  • 6 votes
#1.8 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:18 PM EDT
landspirit

I think that coerced sex was involved. Definitely with semen everywhere, sex happened. I still think this woman's allegations of rape is true. However, because of her background, and the issue that it is one word against the other, the case can go no where.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:09 PM EDT
Mike Rupert

Donna, treason a far worse crime than rape? Did I read what you wrote correctly? I understand why someone would say that, but that's actually incorrect. Also, I hope you're not one of those women who end up defending men in a disproportionate manner; because women actually don't understand men like they often believe they do. Back later this evening.

  • 5 votes
#1.10 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:38 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

Mike:I suppose my words could be misunderstood. I was trying to say that lying about rape does more harm to actual victims than anything that could be done to DSK -- innocent or guilty. He will survive and, probably, become more successful. It will take women years to undo the harm that false accusations cause.

As for your "hope" about me -- I'm laughing. With all that I have been through in my life, I am, thankfully, still pretty level headed and clear thinking. Good and bad -- not exclusive to either gender.

BTW: men don't understand women, either -- but then you wouldn't have asked that question if you they did.

  • 3 votes
#1.11 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 6:03 PM EDT
Mike Rupert

Did I miss something? Has this lady lied? Women are often harder on women in these situations than men - while turning a blind eye to what men do. This guy has a history and deserves to be in jail; but the dude hasn't been prosecuted because of his power, influence and money. It's his pattern of behavior.

And correct, men don't understand women either to a great degree. And you're right that making false accusations can do harm. All these things come into play, but rape is a bigger problem than most understand. Many women never come forward and that's what I truly care about. Most men - yes, most men - if they thought they could get away with it would rape a woman who was extremely attractive. Women don't understand this. I'm being frank, but it's the truth.

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 4:30 AM EDT
TheView FromHere

"Most men - yes, most men - if they thought they could get away with it would rape a woman"-

Mike you can take me out of that gross sexist generalization and shove your "frankness" up your #$@*! "Women" who know enough men understand our sense of protection, care and honor would never allow us to commit this crime of violence.

  • 6 votes
#1.13 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:05 AM EDT
margaret-1186258

Mike, you worry me. . . . and that's saying something!!

  • 5 votes
#1.14 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:46 AM EDT
Donna Carbone

Mike,

I'm with margaret. You scare the crap out of me! If you are admitting that you would rape a woman (with the "extremely attractive" qualifier -- a rapist with standards -- how nice for you! ) IF you could get away with it, then, please, do us all a favor and turn yourself in now.

I hope every man who reads this post and does suffer from your predilection for -- what the hell is it that you suffer from anyway? -- is offended by your generalization.

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 8:41 AM EDT
Baron von Steuben

I agree with margaret. It takes a sick individual to commit rape. Most men would be sickened by the idea. If you think you would rape a woman if you could get away with it you should seek psychiatric help.

  • 6 votes
#1.16 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 8:42 AM EDT
Donna Carbone

My bad! Big typo!

I hope every man who reads this post and does NOT suffer from your predilection for -- what the hell is it that you suffer from anyway? -- is offended by your generalization.

  • 4 votes
#1.17 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 9:19 AM EDT
Mike Rupert

Absolutely fascinating. None of you guys understood what I said. My specific comments have nothing to do with me or anyone here. I said "most"; that doesn't include me, and when someone uses the word "most" it doesn't include anyone specific, including you, TheView. But obviously I have to be more specific. Apparently it's needed here, as I thought a little more maturity and understanding of human nature was going to reflect what I said. I'll be more specific, and probably something I should have done at first. There are certain situations that, in my opinion, could set off most men to take advantage of a woman - all differing from circumstance to circumstance - if a man thought he could get away with it. Would these circumstances be rare and extreme at times? Of course. It runs the gamut from a man being drunk to a man being high to a man being extremely horny in an isolated area, or a man misreading a woman's desire or intention and taking advantage of it, convincing himself in some way that "she wants it"; or, as what often happens - and we see this often - when crowds get into sexual frenzies, or you have the "mob mentality". We see this with teenagers - crowds of them - raping and sexually assaulting a girl because of the mindset the crowd is in. We see this with adults, we see this in war, we see this at musical concerts, isolated areas, and we see it in the mentality of a man who believes for whatever reason that his actions aren't going to affect the woman, not understanding that there is often a difference in the way men and women read each other, and respond to circumstance and sexual advances.

What's the stat about women being raped? 1 in 3? Who's raping the women? And we know that most rapes aren't reported. Again, my statement was "most" - if the circumstance were extreme enough and the guy allowed himself to go there and justify it in his mind - and human beings are known to do things they later regret. This is a fact. Most men will never rape a woman. But that wasn't my point. I was talking about the indecency and immorality that, yes, is all of us that we mostly control. I was talking about human potential.

  • 3 votes
#1.18 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 3:26 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

I hate to burst your bubble, Mike, but according to Webster's dictionary, most is defined as:

: greatest in quantity, extent, or degree <the most ability>

: the majority of <most people>

In your original post, you were quite specific. You said "most men." Can't get much clearer than that. And... if most means the greatest in quantity, how is it that you were lucky enough to fall on the minority side.

I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I don't believe there is any circumstance that would "set off" a man of principles and good character. Just as an example, when my husband (a retired chiropractor) and I were engaged, we were invited to another couple's house for dinner. They decided to show a somewhat mild x-rated film. I was young, easily embarrassed and concerned about what my soon to be husband was thinking. A few minutes into the film, a really pretty naked woman came onto the screen. He looked and me and said, "Wow! She has one of the worst cases of scoliosis I have seen. Let's go home."

Decency is a way of life. It's 24 hours a day/7 days a week... no vacations, no coffee breaks, no excuses. You are either a good guy or you are not. I believe in my heart that "most" men are good guys. Sadly, they are overshadowed by the creeps of this world.

  • 2 votes
#1.19 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 6:45 PM EDT
Mike Rupert

I hate to burst your bubble, Mike, but according to Webster's dictionary, most is defined as:

: greatest in quantity, extent, or degree

: the majority of

In your original post, you were quite specific. You said "most men." Can't get much clearer than that. And... if most means the greatest in quantity, how is it that you were lucky enough to fall on the minority side.

Exactly. Most means the majority. Somehow you felt the need to show me a definition which was a complete waste of time. I'm in the minority because I've always fought against injustice. I participate in actually doing something about those who abuse others, and under no circumstance would I violate a woman. Coming from a woman your age, you first paragraph to me is not only defensive and ignorant, it goes against the very words in your moniker, "searching for common sense in the universe."

I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I don't believe there is any circumstance that would "set off" a man of principles and good character.

Donna, a person can spend most of one's life doing good, participating as a decent human being, but we are all fallible. Why you won't admit we all make horrible decisions - at least a few times in our lives - really falls short of understanding the scope of human nature and our history.

Just as an example, when my husband (a retired chiropractor) and I were engaged, we were invited to another couple's house for dinner. They decided to show a somewhat mild x-rated film. I was young, easily embarrassed and concerned about what my soon to be husband was thinking. A few minutes into the film, a really pretty naked woman came onto the screen. He looked and me and said, "Wow! She has one of the worst cases of scoliosis I have seen. Let's go home."

Once again you're showing a lack of understanding of human nature. Did your soon to be husband make a good decision for him and you? It sounds like it was at the time for both of you. But we do good all the time and make the right decisions constantly, but we also make mistakes. We also make decisions sometimes based on how we feel, the perceived consequences of our actions and then make a decision accordingly - not always for the most honest of purposes. We also sometimes do things differently around other people.

Decency is a way of life. It's 24 hours a day/7 days a week... no vacations, no coffee breaks, no excuses. You are either a good guy or you are not. I believe in my heart that "most" men are good guys. Sadly, they are overshadowed by the creeps of this world.

Donna, if we both knew intimately, and precisely the history of every person - liberal or conservative - on the planet, you'd find bad things we've all done. Mean things. Hurtful things. Immoral things. Every one of us - including you. According to your black and white thinking we're all bad. You're wrong, Donna. And you're not being honest.

  • 3 votes
#1.20 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:39 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

I guess I just have more faith in men and mankind than you do, Mike. If that shows a lack of understanding of human nature (as you claim), so be it. I will never believe that the majority of men under any circumstances would commit heinous crimes such as rape.

I would request a little clarification on something you wrote earlier. Are "most" men going to rape only "attractive" women (your words) or will those less handsomely endowed have to worry as well? Considering that there have been many cases of women in the 80s and 90s being raped by males in their 20s, I was wondering just what criteria you use to evaluate attractiveness.

BTW: a bad decision could be how we invest our money or eating that pound of Godiva chocolates instead of dinner. Rape? That's not a bad decision -- that's a mindset that only those with some serious psychological problems would embrace. There are numerous studies showing that rapists -- like most violent criminals -- have severe personality disorders. Should I assume that "most" men also are unstable.

You know, Mike, I really don't want to fight with you. I just have to say that I find your generalization of the male gender so offensive... well, I just find it really, really offensive.

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:32 AM EDT
TheView FromHere

Donna I am right beside you. I have confronted more than a few sexist rants on here, defied destructive labels and outright ignorant attacks. ALL of them have tried to hide behind "specifics" or "situations" to clarify their own sexist, racist "beleif system". I have defended women in word and fist on several occasions in my life and would do it again, it is the responsibility of all human beings. Leave this arrogant, cowardly sexist to his own delusion.

Oppose all sexist language, misandrist or misogynist, they are both hate speech and wrong.

  • 1 vote
#1.22 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:12 PM EDT
Mike Rupert

Donna -

I guess I just have more faith in men and mankind than you do, Mike. If that shows a lack of understanding of human nature (as you claim), so be it. I will never believe that the majority of men under any circumstances would commit heinous crimes such as rape.

Donna, I've given many examples above where men rape women. I also reminded you of gang rapes. Gang rapes that involve teenagers and grown men. These are times when the mob mentality sets in, and you have 5, 10, 15 men who'll take turns with a girl or woman. One of the most recent examples is in northern California where many teenage boys at a school dance gang raped a teenage girl outside the watchful eye of any adult. Most of these kids were described as "good kids", if you know the story. The term "good kids" is probably one that you yourself would use if you had known most of these boys before they had brutally scarred this girl for life.

I would request a little clarification on something you wrote earlier. Are "most" men going to rape only "attractive" women (your words) or will those less handsomely endowed have to worry as well? Considering that there have been many cases of women in the 80s and 90s being raped by males in their 20s, I was wondering just what criteria you use to evaluate attractiveness.

You're exactly right. My first post was short, and wasn't meant to get into full detail of the myriad examples of why men rape women. And there are many reasons obviously. Being attractive isn't a requisite to be raped or gang raped.

BTW: a bad decision could be how we invest our money or eating that pound of Godiva chocolates instead of dinner. Rape? That's not a bad decision -- that's a mindset that only those with some serious psychological problems would embrace. There are numerous studies showing that rapists -- like most violent criminals -- have severe personality disorders. Should I assume that "most" men also are unstable.

Donna, you need to understand, for example, the mob mentality. This is when good people get caught up in the atmosphere and act in ways they never really would.This extends, maybe you don't want to believe it, to gang rapes. You also have to understand that many rapes happen when a man is drunk. Does that mean he's severely mentally unstable? It doesn't necessarily mean that. You also have to understand, like I said above, men often justify taking advantage of a women by convincing himself - even when he's not completely sure - that she "wants it." Men and women regularly interpret situations differently. And these actions by some of these man - yes, men who don't have severe personality disorders - lead to men being convicted of rape. These men much of the time aren't horrible people. They just did something really horrid and @!$%#ed up and really irresponsible. (By the way, Donna, sometimes what is called rape, men wouldn't call rape, because they believe the woman led them on, or again, convinced himself that "she wants it too.")

I just have to say that I find your generalization of the male gender so offensive... well, I just find it really, really offensive.

Donna, as I said in a previous post, most men will never rape. Most men will never feel the strong urge to rape a woman. But that wasn't my point. My point was about human potential. Just as we're all capable - yes, fully capable of extreme violations of other human beings - we can do these things by justifying it in our minds, depending on the atmosphere, and or where we are in our lives. (It doesn't make one evil.) You wonder how so many in Nazi Germany could have gone along with exterminating millions of people. That's what I was talking about. You ask Germany military men today what they think about Hitler, they get enraged. But back then, they followed orders, and got caught up in the insanity.

TheView FromHere -

Your above post was nothing but rhetoric. You've not countered any of my points with any relevant points of your own. Your post is simply emotional and fearful. You've shown no argument whatsoever.

  • 4 votes
#1.23 - Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:28 AM EDT
Mike Rupert

Check this: from The National Criminal Justice Service (review from 1984) -

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=100649

From the piece:

While the literature is far from definitive, this review indicates that most men are capable of rape, but that its frequency varies with cultural variables, such as the prevalence of male warlike behavior and the extent of social upheaval.

and

Most men are capable of rape, war historian claims -

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/most-men-are-capable-of-rape-war-historian-claims-640097.html

and

'Are All Men Capable of Rape?' -

http://debrayton.blogspot.com/2009/06/are-all-men-capable-of-rape.html

From the site:

The simple answer? Yes, all men are capable of rape, all men, regardless of the social context or cultural norms they were raised in.

Humans are quite complicated animals. Human minds are incredible and incredibly adept at rationalizing, compartmentalizing and in extreme stress, breaking. The closer humans get to the primitive mind, the more likely they are to engage in what we would consider reprehensible acts. When people are required to break their social conditioning, such as soldiers are required to do - is it any surprise that some of them will break with it more completely? And when people never receive certain types of social conditioning - acts that we find repugnant naturally happen.



  • 4 votes
#1.24 - Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:18 AM EDT
Donna Carbone

Mike, this is the second time I've tried to write this response so here's hoping my computer doesn't crash again.

Maybe the problem is your verbiage and my interpretation. While I agree that all human beings have the potential to commit horrendous crime, I do not believe that the majority would do so without good cause. Yes, we have people like Hitler and his ilk but they were a few against many. We also have mad men around the globe intent on ethnic cleansing, but again, they are a few against many. Now, please don't misunderstand. Although I wrote "few" I did not mean to lessen the horror of what they are doing. What I am trying to say is that a smaller number of evil minded people can do great harm to the larger number of good people. Evil seems to present with a greater urge to act than does good. Why is that?

You mentioned the mob mentality and you are correct that it can be contagious. That's what I mean about evil having a greater urge. More people will gather together to create havoc than will come together to do good. That doesn't mean though that there are less good people. It just appears that way because, sadly, "good" people tend to run away and hide. I guess you could ask just how good are they, but self preservation is probably the strongest urge of all.

I do believe that people who commit heinous crime are mentally unstable. I know! I know! That opens another can of worms. What actually constitute mental illness? Answering that question could take an eternity because there are those who are so appalled by the label "crazy" that they would rather let the deranged roam the streets than institutionalize (not incarcerate) them for life.

Just yesterday there was an article in our local paper about people who had been found guilty by reason of insanity of terrible crime, had "supposedly" gotten help and were released back into society. Within a very short time -- sometimes less than a day -- they had injured someone else.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that the use of the word "most" needs to be qualified. If you are saying that most human beings have the "potential" to commit crime, I would agree. I do not agree that most human beings would act on that potential. I definitely do not agree that most men would rape if they thought they could get away with it. Could they? Yes. Would they? No.

I've got to say, Mike, that I much prefer living in my world, even if I am wearing rose colored glasses, than in your world. I don't think I could get out of bed in the morning if I gave up hope that mankind was, at its core, well intentioned.

I do appreciate your willingness to continue this discussion. Hopefully, we've all learned something from the exchange.

  • 2 votes
#1.25 - Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:45 AM EDT
Wheel

Most men - yes, most men - if they thought they could get away with it would rape a woman who was extremely attractive

Nonsense. As a man and a father of 2 sons I find that statement to be offensive and dishonest.

  • 5 votes
#1.26 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:13 PM EDT
gmross

Wheel, I have to agree with you, I find this statement offensive and dishonest. Rape isn't about sex, it is about controlling the woman, because, the man doing the raping is too weak minded and too much of a wuss to get a woman any other way. A real man knows how to treat a woman and knows that not all women want him.

  • 6 votes
#1.27 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:28 PM EDT
Mike Rupert

Offensive and dishonest, eh. Again, I'll give the following links that I gave above that you can read, if you're willing to be honest. And again, I've given examples of the mob mentality, I've given examples of when men are drunk, I've given examples of when men misread a woman's intentions, I've given examples of when men attempt to justify their actions, believing it's ok, I've given examples of men in war. I've given examples of both men and boys sometimes 5, 10, 15 at a time taking their turn with a girl or woman - people who were described as "good people" by those who knew them. And Donna, I'll be able to respond to your post later tonight. Here are the links:

From The National Criminal Justice Service (review from 1984) -

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=100649

From the piece:

While the literature is far from definitive, this review indicates that most men are capable of rape, but that its frequency varies with cultural variables, such as the prevalence of male warlike behavior and the extent of social upheaval.

and

Most men are capable of rape, war historian claims -

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/most-men-are-capable-of-rape-war-historian-claims-640097.html

and

'Are All Men Capable of Rape?' -

http://debrayton.blogspot.com/2009/06/are-all-men-capable-of-rape.html

From the site:

The simple answer? Yes, all men are capable of rape, all men, regardless of the social context or cultural norms they were raised in.

Humans are quite complicated animals. Human minds are incredible and incredibly adept at rationalizing, compartmentalizing and in extreme stress, breaking. The closer humans get to the primitive mind, the more likely they are to engage in what we would consider reprehensible acts. When people are required to break their social conditioning, such as soldiers are required to do - is it any surprise that some of them will break with it more completely? And when people never receive certain types of social conditioning - acts that we find repugnant naturally happen.


  • 2 votes
#1.28 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:02 PM EDT
Wheel

Mike, you've given some examples but you've failed utterly to prove that most men would commit rape. Offensive and dishonest. Yeah, it holds up, your claim does not.

  • 5 votes
#1.29 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:12 PM EDT
gmross

Mike, I find it offensive and dishonest that you would think to call "most men rapist", I have never in my 55 years forced a woman to do anything, and I think that you owe me and Wheel and every man on this vine an apology.

  • 4 votes
#1.30 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:02 AM EDT
Reply
leonahardware

Nicely written! As a woman that was molested at the age of 9, I applaud and greatly appreciate bringing this subject out and into the open.

  • 8 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 10:07 AM EDT
Donna Carbone

I am so sorry you had to suffer this atrocious crime at such a young age. I wish we could prosecute woman who do bring false accusations so that those who truly need support are not lost to bad publicity. You will be in my prayers and thoughts!

  • 8 votes
#2.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 10:14 AM EDT
Mongowildman

A little troubling here... Someone says that all men are capable of rape... Not so. It is not just the men. All PEOPLE are capable of it.

Now, the question should be, how many actually WOULD?

I can honestly say from my personal point of view, NOT all men would.

As a teen, my cousin and I wandered into an attempted rape in progress. Our presence and the fact that we outnumbered the perp, he ran off. I simply cannot comprehend why someone would do something like that. If I could intervene and prevent it from happening, I certainly would.

  • 5 votes
#2.2 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:01 PM EDT
Freedom Writer-801740

Well all people are capable of murder, theft, assault, just because a person is "capable of something" doesnt mean they will do it.

  • 7 votes
#2.3 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:19 PM EDT
Mongowildman

My point exactly.

  • 6 votes
#2.4 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:28 PM EDT
Reply
Baron von Steuben

It is a problem, particularly when we have a culture that does not recognize the heinous crime for what it is and tacitly approves of it. Add to that the blame the victim mentality and the false accusations and I'm afraid we have a long way to go if we are ever going to rectify the situation.

  • 7 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:05 AM EDT
Spikegary

I understand what you are saying, Donna, and thank you for saying it so succinctly. I have 2 daughters and would be absolutely out of mind if anyone ever touched inappropriately or forced themselves on my daughters. I also understand the double-edged sword of mis-reporting.

Years ago, my 4 year old daughter was goint to pre-school and one of the subjects they harped on a lot was 'bad touching'. For clarification, both daughters are my stepchildran (not that makes any differenc eint he world about how I feel about them). We were court ordered to drive across the state (because we moved here for my job) every other weekend and school breaks to porvide very liberal visitation. On one spring break, I was going to Florida for tyhe job and since the kids were not going to be with us, I bought a ticket for my wife-we would have a short week in Florida together. The night before we were to turn her over to her dad, the little one started crying a lot and finally after much trying by everyone said her father had been touching her inappropriately. We called the court, we called the attornies, we refused to let her go, we had emergency court hearings, his visitations were required to be supervised, etc., etc. We took her to see a Psychiatrist at the court's order, we had people from Child Welfare visiting the house, etc. etc.

After several months of this she said she wanted to go spend part of the summer with her dad and he didn't really do that-she just didn't want mommy going away without her-and it made sense to her-as they had told her that if she said this, she wouldn't have to go spend time with him which meant she could stay with mommy, as a brand new 5 year old-that had no idea the consequences her actions would bring. We immediately caled the court, the attornies, etc. because, in my own words, no man should be forced to wear that jacket if he doesn't deserve it. The attorney representing us (appointed by the court) was pissed off because we were screwing 'her case up'.

This has never been an issue since because she understands that reporting is a good thing-if it is in fact true.

Donna-I sent you a FR-we are already friends on FB and TAV!

  • 6 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:17 AM EDT
Scarlet Termite

Good article,Donna. It brings up a similar situation to Spikegary's. When my husband was divorcing his first wife, she inexplicably decided to accuse him of molesting their five year-old daughter. It may have been because she wanted full custody and no visitation since she already got what she wanted from him, i.e. the children.
My husband immediately arranged for the daughter and himself to be examined by a physician and a psychologist. Neither one found any evidence that my husband molested his daughter. Needless to say, the whole episode has caused bad feelings on both sides.
The kids are grown now and I am unaware if my stepdaughter even knows what happened when she was 5 but it certainly stays with my husband and will for the rest of his life.

  • 5 votes
#4.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:54 AM EDT
Reply
0pinion8ed

This is a too very sad situation. Either way it can cause devastation for a long time. What I find so disconcerting is that the sex education taught in schools is inadequate and still that is being criticized by some who are afraid that it might "give the kids ideas". With over 6 billlion people in the world, I daresay they can figure it out for themselves. What they need to learn and are not taught is about the emotions involved and just because one wants it and feels good, does not mean that the other party does. The gender differences in the emotional import of the act are so totally ignored or dismissed people are only left to feel on a purely biological level. Not a good idea. I believe the initial misunderstanding is responsible of much of the problem.

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:53 AM EDT
Bubba-939441

Many women falsely identify their attacker. Some of the identified men have served years in prison. Thanks to DNA some have been released, but many others, where the evidence is not available will serve their time for a crime they didn't committ.

  • 6 votes
Reply#6 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:55 AM EDT
MartinEZ

This isn't just limited to accusations against the rich and powerful. I know of more than a couple instances where the accusation has been made against college kids who go out one night, everyone gets hammered, a girl does something she is ashamed of and instead of swallowing her pride, blames another drunk person for taking advantage of her.

It's a shame that when I hear accusations of rape my first feelings are those of doubt and mistrust.

  • 8 votes
Reply#7 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:04 PM EDT
0pinion8ed

I find myself in the same predicament Martin.

What I find passing strange is the statement "he got me drunk". Everyone knows that alcohol is used as a social lubricant causing a release of inhibitions. That is the point. When that first drink is consumed, warning bells should go off in their heads. Beyond that... self-protection in that instance does not automatically shift to someone else. I find that thought process mystifying.

  • 7 votes
#7.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:11 PM EDT
HeelsnHairMetal

What I find passing strange is the statement "he got me drunk".

Nobody can get anyone else drunk unless they are spiking their drinks without their knowledge. You get yourself drunk by downing drink after drink of your own willpower.

I think the "he got me drunk" accusation of rape is disgusting. Unless someone is so drunk that they are blacked out or near blacking out, I think it should just go down as a lessoned learned about why you shouldnt get sloppy drunk in public.

  • 10 votes
#7.2 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 12:46 PM EDT
0pinion8ed

Agreed Heels, another thing I find mystifying is your handle, lol. Sorry, I don't know what it called these days... handle actually referred to days of CB radio communications.

  • 2 votes
#7.3 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:00 PM EDT
HeelsnHairMetal

LOL, I like high heels and I like hair metal. Im a late 80s baby!

Actually I have been trying to change it but I dont think I can :(

  • 3 votes
#7.4 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:26 PM EDT
Spikegary

You have to ask the 'Powers that be' to change your name and it helps to send them reasoning why. When I first came here, I mispelled my handle (Spikgary) and couldn't change it, didn't think much of it until a friend told me he found it a little insulting-so I asked and they changed it for me. You can ask via 'Report Bug'

  • 2 votes
#7.5 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:56 PM EDT
0pinion8ed

Lol, change it if you want... it does make you stand out.... no pun intended.

  • 1 vote
#7.6 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:37 PM EDT
Reply
MalfunktionDeleted
slr76-1299710

Good article. Thank you for standing up and speaking out about these less than comfortable subjects. They need to be spoken of and kept in the spotlight so that we can continue to improve on how we treat rape and human trafficking in our society.

  • 3 votes
Reply#9 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:19 PM EDT
Mrs D-1475814

My step-son's girlfriend stated that she was raped at a party that they were at. He called me and asked what they should do. I said call the police and that she will then be taken to the hospital for an examination. That was 3:00 am in the morning. I was up all night... waiting and crying!

Since we had not heard anything, I called the police at 11:00 am. My stepson and his girlfriend had just showed up a few minutes ago. WTF!! THAT told me a lot. Hmmm.. I guess they had to get sleep and time to get alcohol out of their system?

Well, long story short, his girlfriend was having sex in the "laundry room" with a married neighbor when my stepson walked in and she cried "rape". Well, it came out that she lied and the guy had been arrested. When I walked into the police station she tried to come up to me and I just put my hand up (leave me alone) and kept walking.

My stepson stayed with her for another year. Yeah, he is a dumb-ass! I told him that he would be welcome in our home but, no longer would she be allowed in our home. She could have put a man in prison for a lie. Disgusting!

  • 6 votes
Reply#10 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:48 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

Well, first I want to thank you all for your very positive feedback. Second, I want to ask where you all were last week when I was being raked over the coals by Loretta Kemsley on her post "Women's Dress Blamed for Rape." LOL

I know it is bad behavior to post a post within a post, but since some of you mentioned Bristol Palin and/or emotions, below you will find an article I wrote a year ago entitled, "Spare Me the Abstinence Speech." Would be interested in your comments on this one as well:

Yesterday's Palm Beach Post carried a tiny sidebar news item relating Bristol Palin's change of heart regarding pre-marital sex. The new mom is on the talk circuit in an attempt to warn teenagers that sex before marriage is a no-no. If I recall correctly, it wasn't that long ago that Ms. Palin went on record as believing abstinence was unrealistc. Now, with the burden of child care ever on her hips, she realizes she was unprepared for the changes a baby would bring into her life. Perhaps, if she and Levi Johnson had used condoms all of the time, rather than "most of the time" (Levi's words), she would not now be pining for her lost youth.

The changes in her life.....that's the message she should be carrying to students everywhere. Irresponsible sex can cause devastating changes to the plans we make for our future. Bye bye college, so long Spring break, adios fraternity parties and the latest designer tee shirt and jeans. Hello Burger King, dirty diapers and puke stains on your Hanes three to a pack.

I don't care if a message from the Virgin Mary suddenly appears in the sky stating she should have waited until after she married Joseph to be immaculately impregnated, abstinence is not going to catch on as the next big trend. It's been years since the teenage urge to copulate surged through my body, but even back then, I knew hormones were illiterate. They don't speak our language; they can't read the bible and they don't respond well to being told "No." Hormones cannot be controlled. They can only be contained -- within little latex balloons called condoms.

Some time ago, I was researching Purity Balls for a possible documentary. To be honest, my skin crawled at the thought of dads and daughters entering into a written commitment sealed with a virginity ring. The fathers pledge to protect their daughters in mind, body and soul, while their daughters vow to abstain from sex until marriage. Talk about setting your kids up for failure.

Responsible parents tell their children that they would prefer they wait until marriage to have sex. Smart parents know that's probably not going to happen. Believing your teenagers will adopt such a philosophy is naive. Kids are not being intentionally rebellious; they're just ill prepared for the power of sexual attraction.

Pro-active parents grab their little darlings by the arm, sit their asses down and talk the real talk. Wise parents never forget that kids are experts at saying what we want to hear and then doing the exact opposite.

When our son and daughter entered their early teens, my husband and I spoke honestly with them about our feelings. We did not expect them to wait. We would not condemn them for not waiting. We did expect them to take full responsibility for their actions and live with the consequences. We gave them "standards" for lack of a better word.

The first and most important thing we asked them to consider was how strongly they felt about the other person. Did they have deep enduring feelings or was this just a passing fancy?

Notice I didn't say love. Kids fall in and out of love all the time. Distinguishing real love from a chemical surge is difficult even for adults. What my husband and I tried to stress was that sex was not shameful and was, indeed, beautiful, but its beauty was both fleeting and painful if treated too casually. We asked them to always make the other person's feelings more important than their own.

Ask yourself these questions, we encouraged:

* How will sex change me? How will sex change my girl/boyfriend?

* Will I feel less important after sex?

* Will I lose respect for the my girl/boyfriend?

* Do I see this person in my future?

If they knew they would be able to look us and themselves in the eye in the morning, we passed no judgment. We talked about birth control openly. We also talked about disease and death. The sex primer comes with lots of appendixes, and it always needs to be updated.

I'm not saying that our method was perfect, but we must have done something right. Neither of our kids was promiscuous and, when the time came, they told us before taking that step. As a result, we were able to emphasize again the need for physical and emotional protection.

Everyone makes mistakes. Don't let an unwanted pregnancy and STDs be your legacy. Talk honestly with your kids. If you remain silent, you could be signing their death sentence.

  • 5 votes
Reply#11 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 1:58 PM EDT
Spikegary

Sorry Donna-didn't see anything yesterday-picked this up off the 'Top News' page under featured columnists today.

I understand saying you should wait, which is the point I believe Bristol was trying to make. Is it realistic that everyone will heed that advice? No, of course not. Educating kids on what can happen by someone much closer to their peer group probably has more chance of success-kids look at us and say-wow, after all the mistakes you've made, you want me to believe what you're selling? As opposed to someone that can speak sincerely and at the same maturity level (more or less).

Would I be happier if my kids never had sex? Sure-but it's not realistic and I do want grandbabies some day.

  • 4 votes
#11.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

I understand exactly what you are saying. I think I went through my kids teen years with my heart constantly in my throat. I found brutal honesty worked best. It embarrassed them -- and me sometimes -- but they always knew we were telling the truth and had their best interests at heart.

Grandbabies! My daughter is being married in September. I can't wait for the next step!

  • 2 votes
#11.2 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:33 PM EDT
0pinion8ed

There was just so much I didn't know. Sex, pregnancy, etc were spoken of in whispers and giggles along with many snide comments. I did not know anything, I didn't even know what it was that I didn't know. That still makes me angry. When parents do that they communicate that sex is nasty. I really wish it was talked about as a normal biological function complicated by anthropological and biological drives with techniques to recognize unconcious signals that are transmitted and by biological creatures and also techniques to avoid giving/receiving those unconscious signals as acquiesence. That is a good part of the problem. Arm them as well with prevention methods. When either gender is not taught these things what they absorb by osmosis gets them in all kinds of trouble. Education, education, education. There is a lot to know and groups that lobby against that teaching are setting up kids for all kinds of grief.

  • 4 votes
#11.3 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 2:49 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

For the life of me I cannot understand why sex is such a difficult subject to talk about. None of us would be here without it!

  • 6 votes
#11.4 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:04 PM EDT
TheView FromHere

Thank you for an excellent balanced approach to the devastating affects of false accusations that women use for revenge, divorce advantage and to cover their own deranged and deceptive behavior. it is refreshing to read an objective response from a well known woman writer that HAS had her critics in this area. I will come to your defense in the future. I do have two points for the topic:

1. Even more abominable than false rape accusations are charges of false child abuse commonly levied by women against fathers to garner the sympathy of the court and immediately trigger VAWA laws - lowering the burden of proof to "preponderance of the evidence" allows hearsay and unsubstantiated claims to ruin any man (saint or sinner) in a legal proceeding. When any of these accusations are proven to be false, as in this case, the accuser should be very publicly put away for a very long time.

2. With the myriad of examples of women using false accusations of rape/child abuse, examples of women raping boys and commiting violent acts against their partner the declaration that "only men rape/commit dv" is now proven to be false and an over reaction to the history of male abuse and exploitation of women. Where is the outrage by female writers having called for sexual equality? when does the need to prevent the court system from manipulation and as a tool of vengeance over come the gender bias' found in the decisions of the court?

Thank you again. i am preparing a lengthly article on this same topic and will publish it on the Vine soon.

  • 2 votes
#11.5 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:21 PM EDT
Reply
Carol-99

While the woman who accused Dominique Strauss-Kahn may have lied about her application for asylum from the government of Guinea and about what happened immediately after the alleged attack, there is no proof that she was not raped or that the sex was consensual.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2081204,00.html

Thompson claimed that there is substantial forensic and medical evidence that will be revealed in court. He said that Strauss-Kahn ripped the woman's pantyhose, tore a ligament in her shoulder and grabbed her so hard that he caused visible bruising on her vagina. The woman said that Strauss-Kahn forced her to perform oral sex, after which Thompson said she crawled away from Strauss-Kahn, and as she was fleeing, she spit his semen on the floor and wall of the hotel suite. Thompson claimed that all of the details had been documented by crime scene investigators and would be revealed in the trial.

If what her lawyer says is true, then that does not sound like consensual sex to me. She has also admitted to lying about her actions immediately after the attack. A well known sex crimes prosecutor has said that it is normal for a woman to not immediately report her attack.

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/01/137557923/sex-crimes-prosecutor-discusses-strauss-kahn-case

BLOCK: One inconsistency that the prosecutors are detailing has to do with what the alleged victim told investigators about what she did immediately after the alleged crime. And now, according to court documents, she actually cleaned another room, then went back and cleaned Dominique Strauss-Kahn's room after he left. That's different from what she had originally told them. How key are those first few moments or hours after an alleged attack?

Ms. KOROBOV: Let me say this, that I think people have an expectation of how a victim is going to respond after a sexual assault has occurred, and we know that a delay in disclosure is normal, while a person is trying to process what exactly happened to them. It is not the norm that a person will immediately contact law enforcement. Usually, there's a thought of what do I do, who do I turn to?

BLOCK: How about changes in stories, inconsistencies that detail description of what happened afterward might change substantially? Do you see that a lot?

Ms. KOROBOV: No. We never as human beings tell the same story exactly the same way every single time, and it depends largely on the questioner and how comfortable a person feels in disclosing information to them. Substantial changes, though, most prosecutors would say that's not typical that you would see substantial changes. But again, it does depend on the questioner and it depends on trauma.

Just because this woman may have lied, does not mean that she was not raped. I do not understand why you say that you had doubts about the story from the beginning. Do you not think that powerful men with respectable titles are capable of committing violence against women? We do not know if DSK is guilty of the rape, but we do not know if he was innocent either. I agree that falsely accusing a man of rape can be just as devastating as the act of raping a woman, but I believe that false accusations of rape are rare. The larger problem is that rape is a highly under reported crime.

  • 2 votes
#12 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:27 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

Carol 99:

My doubts have to do with my advocacy work and the stories I have heard and the people I have dealt with. I did not say this woman was lying only that if she is, she has done a great injustice to true victims.

I don't want to demean anything you wrote but when you read with emotion rather than with your eyes, you see things that are not there. As for false accusations of rape -- try sitting in Family Court for a day and see if you still feel that way.

Rape is under reported because women are made to feel ashamed and false accusations only serve to point the finger of doubt at real victims.

  • 3 votes
#12.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:01 PM EDT
Carol-99

I don't want to demean anything you wrote but when you read with emotion rather than with your eyes, you see things that are not there.

What is it that you are accusing me of seeing that is not there? You are using the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case as an example of how devastating a false accusation of rape can be, when you do not even know if he has been falsely accused. I am reading with logic. Perhaps you did not outright accuse the woman of making a false rape accusation, but you implied that it was likely. As I said, I totally agree that false rape accusations are horrible and devastating. I just wonder why you are using this case to illustrate that point.

  • 1 vote
#12.2 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

I think I was pretty clear in saying that we do not -- probably will never -- know the real circumstances of what happened. And, yes, I always play devil's advocate when accusations like these arise. I am not quick to jump on the condemnation bandwagon without having at least some facts.

Tell me, what do you think of the latest female to come forward -- after 8 years. Do you not think that, perhaps, there is political motivation behind it. I'm not saying she wasn't raped. I'm just questioning why any woman would wait so long to come forward. If women don't take the crime of rape seriously, why should anyone else?

If you think that public figures, political/corporate/entertainment, are not specifically targeted, you are sadly mistaken. It happens more often than I care to admit, but most times, the accused just quietly pays so that the media mill will not make mulch out of him/her. BTW: woman are unjustly accused of rape as well.

  • 2 votes
#12.3 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:39 PM EDT
TheView FromHere

I believe that false accusations of rape are rare. The larger problem is that rape is a highly under reported crime...

Despite what you "believe" this just isn't true. False accusations have been found in anywhere from 10 -50 % of dv/rape accusations depending upon who is doing the reporting. Even taking this figure on the low side it means that THOUSANDS of accusations are made every year against innocent men.

It is true that men under report abuse, violence and rape - their is still a cultural and legal intimidation for a man to report these assaults just as it has been for women in the past. If there was even a shred of consideration for men in DV shelters, legal services and court system perhaps this gender injustice can be addressed.

Again my point made in my first post was that false accusations are a heinous crime that destroys lives and the penalty for them should be no less severe. But the state attorney general offices, the DA and the court system won't pursue the accusers for fear of intimidating possible future rape victims or opening themselves up to litigation - how's that for a predicament that a man faces in the court today ??

  • 2 votes
#12.4 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 8:19 PM EDT
Carol-99

Despite what you "believe" this just isn't true. False accusations have been found in anywhere from 10 -50 % of dv/rape accusations depending upon who is doing the reporting. Even taking this figure on the low side it means that THOUSANDS of accusations are made every year against innocent men.

Perhaps I should have use the word "uncommon" instead of "rare". There is probably no way of knowing exactly how many accusations of rape are false. This article mentions "studies" which say that anywhere from 2% to 90% of reports for rapes are false. The methods of some of the so called studies were questionable, but there does seem to be a number of studies which conclude that 8% to 10% of reports of rape are false, and this would indeed mean that there are thousands of accusations against innocent men. One false accusation is too many, but this should not deter women from reporting rapes, and more importantly, it should not cause society, law enforcement, and the legal system to conclude that a rape accusation is more likely to be false than true.

http://www.slate.com/id/2231012/pagenum/all/

This is sobering. As, of course, is the whole topic. We're left to draw the following conclusion: False allegations of rape aren't rampant. But they don't have to be to cause terrible trouble. This is a problem that a men's rights movement shouldn't trump up. And also one that feminists can't dismiss.

  • 1 vote
#12.5 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 10:23 PM EDT
Carol-99

I think I was pretty clear in saying that we do not -- probably will never -- know the real circumstances of what happened.

Well, it seemed to me that you were pretty clear in saying that you think it is likely that he was falsely accused. I will admit that the first sentence in your article angered me and that my previous comments may have been a bit emotional. When you said, "From the moment the Dominique Strauss-Kahn accusations hit the newswire, I had my doubts," it seemed to me that you think that such a powerful man is unlikely to commit the heinous crime of rape. It also seems that you automatically concluded that the immigrant hotel maid was “someone with a yearning for increased wealth but not a willingness to work for it.” The perpetrators of rape and their victims can be wealthy and poor, and we should not judge the validity of any rape case based on the income level or social status of either the accused or the accuser. Yes, I may have read more into the article than was there. I ask you again. Why did you mention the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case in this article if you do not think that it is likely that he was falsely accused?

Tell me, what do you think of the latest female to come forward -- after 8 years. Do you not think that, perhaps, there is political motivation behind it. I'm not saying she wasn't raped. I'm just questioning why any woman would wait so long to come forward. If women don't take the crime of rape seriously, why should anyone else?

Perhaps there was a political motivation, or perhaps she wanted to come forward to encourage other women to do the same or to warn other women that this man is dangerous. Many of the victims of Catholic priests did not speak about their abuse until decades after the abuse had occurred. I think that victims may be reluctant to report rape or abuse by authority figures or someone who is perceived to be powerful, because they do not think anyone would believe them. Who would think that a priest would rape someone? Why would DSK have to rape someone to have sex? The NPR article that I linked to in #12 says that it is normal for victims to delay in filing reports after they have been raped. After a person has suffered from any traumatic event, her actions may not appear to be rational while she is processing the situation and deciding what to do.

If you think that public figures, political/corporate/entertainment, are not specifically targeted, you are sadly mistaken. It happens more often than I care to admit, but most times, the accused just quietly pays so that the media mill will not make mulch out of him/her. BTW: woman are unjustly accused of rape as well.

Of course public figures and celebrities are targeted, if for no other reason than the fact that people think that they have money. While the accused may sometimes pay off accusers to avoid publicity, don’t you think that there are also times when victims are afraid to report abuse or rape because they have been threatened or that they do not think anyone will believe them? Some rich and powerful people have enormous egos and they may even think that they are entitled to have sex with anyone. If a low paid office clerk accuses a wealthy CEO of rape, should we automatically think that she just wants a big pay off and that the respected CEO could not possibly commit such a despicable crime?

  • 1 vote
#12.6 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:19 PM EDT
Carol-99

Donna, having made all of the above comments, let me say that I liked your article except for the fact that you used the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn to illustrate your point. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the article would have been better if you had only used cases in which there was proof that a victim had actually filed a false rape report.

  • 2 votes
#12.7 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:33 PM EDT
Donna Carbone

Carol:

I chose DSK because he is in the news now. He's relevant.

I will need to go back through some recent editorials and find the journalists name but I also chose DSK because the reporter -- well-known but whose name escapes me -- and I both shared the same opinion. Not that DSK was innocent but that arresting him so publicly without proof and then having to release him for lack of that very proof did harm on so many levels.

I think I was pretty clear in saying that this piece was not written in support of DSK. While I don't think we should automatically claim the DSK and/or the maid were lying, I also don't think we should automatically claim they weren't. Proof -- show me the proof -- either way.

It's the rush to judgment on both individuals and the way it affects women who were raped that drove this post.

  • 1 vote
#12.8 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:05 AM EDT
Carol-99

Not that DSK was innocent but that arresting him so publicly without proof and then having to release him for lack of that very proof did harm on so many levels.

I agree that it was harmful to arrest DSK, or anyone else for that matter, so publicly. The "perp walk" should be eliminated, because even if someone is tried and proved innocent, people are always going to remember that picture of the accused in the orange jump suit.

  • 1 vote
#12.9 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:18 PM EDT
TheView FromHere

it should not cause society, law enforcement, and the legal system to conclude that a rape accusation is more likely to be false than true.

Actually false accusations do EXACTLY that, like it or not, and they should. It is how experience tempers the original intentions of a law. The article in Slate, which I read when it came out, and this one on the Vine are "case in point" that the culture of accuse first and prove later must end. Lives are destroyed just as thoroughly by false accusations as the crime of rape and the punishment for making them should carry equal severity of prison.

  • 4 votes
#12.10 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:07 AM EDT
Carol-99

it should not cause society, law enforcement, and the legal system to conclude that a rape accusation is more likely to be false than true.

Actually false accusations do EXACTLY that, like it or not, and they should.

Are you saying that because some women and/or men have made false accusations of rape, then we should assume that all rape accusations are false? Do you feel this way about false accusations of other crimes? According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, at least 10% of reported auto thefts are false. So, if this is true, then should law enforcement assume that anyone reporting a stolen vehicle is lying? They are responsible for ensuring that there is ample evidence before arresting a suspect, but they should not assume that every person who files a police report is a liar. I think that some of the venom directed at those who file false accusations should go towards the legal system and the media.

http://www.ncsl.org/print/cj/autotheftreport.pdf

It is estimated that at least 10 percent of automobile theft is a false report of a stolen car; that is, the vehicle has been given up or disposed of to pursue a fraudulent insurance claim. Some of these cars are simply abandoned, and some may end up at illegitimate chop shops and be fraudulently re-tagged and resold.

    #12.11 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:38 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Food for thought: My personal belief is that reported statistics are far below the actual numbers and that false rape charges are more common than we realize. When my daughter was attacked, one of the first officers on the scene told me that he heard the rape call go out over the police radio. His initial reaction was just another domestic dispute with someone wanting to get revenge. It happened so often that it actually hampered police from responding to real calls for help. Then, he heard the address and realized he lived two doors away. Now, keep in mind that my daughter was the first actual rape case in this town.

    My late father in law was a police officer. He hated domestic dispute calls. More often than not, officers would arrive and try to arrest the husband but the wife would attack them saying it was all a mistake -- and often she had claimed to have been raped. Those calls don't make the news. They don't get added to the "statistics" so many people tend to think are the end all and be all of truth.

    I'm not defending police officers who do not treat actual rape victims with respect and dignity. I'm just saying that maybe there is a reason why they react with skepticism first. My family's experience was positive on every level of government service. I can't praise our public servants -- both male and female -- enough. Without them, I don't think any of us would have made it through the two years that led up to the court date.

    I must also tell you that law enforcement was soooooo appreciative of my daughter's willingness to help them make a case. To this day, they refer to her as a role model for how victims can help with the arrest and prosecution of their attackers.

    • 1 vote
    #12.12 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:16 AM EDT
    Carol-99

    I'm just saying that maybe there is a reason why they react with skepticism first.

    Maybe so, but they should make an attempt to determine whether each case is legitimate before automatically dismissing it. Healthy skepticism is a good thing, and suspects should not be arrested without a good reason. Suppose your daughter had not lived two doors down from the officer who responded. Would that officer have not taken her case as seriously if he had not known her?

    • 2 votes
    #12.13 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:06 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Police officers do make every attempt to determine the legitimacy of rape claims. Nothing is "tossed" without first getting the facts. In Jess' case, the police officer who was also a neighbor did NOT know her personally. They had never met or spoken -- only lived on the same street.

    All the other law enforcement officers involved in this case also took the assault seriously. I was truly impressed by the professionalism, dedication and determination of the men and women assigned to finding, arresting, and prosecuting her assailant. I don't deny that there are still cities where rape victims are not accorded the respect they deserve. Only by making the horrendous nature of this crime more clear to society will be ever lessen the incidence of rape and bring about a "healthy" awareness of its circumstances.

    • 3 votes
    #12.14 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:45 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    Only by making the horrendous nature of this crime more clear to society will be ever lessen the incidence of rape and bring about a "healthy" awareness of its circumstances.

    This is a societal issue. I have been thinking that perhaps this is an issue that should be addressed in sex education classes. Perhaps if girls knew what to do in case of an attack, they would be more likely to report it. They should also be taught what they should do to protect themselves as much as possible from an assailant. Boys should also be taught that they should respect women and that it is never acceptable to force a women to have sex. I don't know what, if anything, the public schools are teaching about sex education, and this is just a thought.

    • 4 votes
    #12.15 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:19 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Carol,

    That is an excellent suggestion and one which I wish would be put into use in every public and private school in the world. I do wonder, however, with so many parents opposed to sex education (and it does seem that those most opposed are the ones who don't teach sex ed at home) if even the mention of rape would be allowed. After all, people still think -- no matter how many times you tell them otherwise -- that rape and sex go hand and hand. Since sex is taboo, teaching rape/safety awareness would be like riding a stationary bike.

    Isn't it sad that people have to experience the horror up close and personal before they listen to reason?

    • 4 votes
    #12.16 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:35 PM EDT
    Spikegary

    I believe in society today, boys are taught that rape is wrong. The problem is that there are people that just don't care about right and wrong. Rape is not a crime of passion, it's a crime of anger and hate and the traditional differences between 'right' and 'wrong' are not even considerations in that person's mind.

    • 4 votes
    #12.17 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:49 PM EDT
    margaret-1186258

    Donna, what makes you think that we parents who don't approve of sex ed in school don't teach it at home? People are always saying that, but I've never seen evidence to the contrary, and here's the flip side. . .

    Parents who favor sex ed in the school do so because they're too chicken to face the tough questions from their own children!

    • 1 vote
    #12.18 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:50 PM EDT
    TheView FromHere

    Carol-

    Are you saying that because some women and/or men have made false accusations of rape, then we should assume that all rape accusations are false?

    I believe I have been very careful to state my opinion and now I am defending myself from this straw man argument.. NO I do not believe we should assume ALL rape accusations are false but that the ever increasing data (and the DSK case is a high profile example) of how false accusations have become a matter of tactic SHOULD lead us to begin to doubt accusations that are made in questionable circumstances. You have conceded that THOUSANDS of false accusations are made: Are you saying that these lives destroyed are just the price of saving the real rape victims? is the lowered standard of proof (and an accusation is really all that is necessary to launch an enormous unstoppable VAWA process) ok with you even if it sweeps up a few innocent men in the process?

    • 1 vote
    #12.19 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:53 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Margaret,

    My apologies if I offended you. I, myself, am not in favor of sex ed in school. No that's not true. I favor sex ed being taught at home FIRST and then being re-enforced at school. I never could understand why parents were embarrassed or ashamed to talk to their kids about sex.

    Unfortunately, I've had quite a few friends who neither taught it at home or wanted it taught at school. I guess they preferred the old "learn it from a friend" method -- and usually the friend was no better informed than the one asking the questions.

    Boggles the mind!

    • 1 vote
    #12.20 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:10 PM EDT
    Wheel

    I had the sex talk with my sons, it was embarrassing. Teaching them about condoms was embarrassing. Buying condoms and leaving them in their dresser drawers, just in case, was embarrassing. Checking and making sure they didn't run out was embarrassing.

    You know what wasn't embarrassing?

    Both of my sons were in committed, long term monogamous relationships before they fathered any children. Many of their friends were parents before they graduated from school. My oldest son told me that he appreciated me stepping up to the plate like I did and he plans to have the exact same talk with his son when the time is right.

    • 5 votes
    #12.21 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:21 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    You have conceded that THOUSANDS of false accusations are made: Are you saying that these lives destroyed are just the price of saving the real rape victims? is the lowered standard of proof (and an accusation is really all that is necessary to launch an enormous unstoppable VAWA process) ok with you even if it sweeps up a few innocent men in the process?

    I am saying that all rape accusations should be properly evaluated before an arrest is made. If it is determined that there is enough evidence to justify an arrest, then the arrest should not be made publicly. In other words, there should be no more perp walks. If a false arrest is made due to flimsy evidence, then the legal system is just as much to blame as the accuser. I would think that if you asked a police officer, he or she would tell you that false accusations for all crimes are fairly common and that part of the job is to determine whether a complaint or an accusation is legitimate. I have said before that one false accusation is too many. A false accusation is especially damaging for a serious violent crime. The legal system should protect both the victims of a crime and the victims of a false accusation. I think that we can all agree that it does not always work, and when it does it is often at an agonizing pace. One of the purposes of the legal system is to hold criminals accountable for their behavior, and that includes those who file false police reports. Are you saying that actual rape victims should not be taken seriously because lives have been destroyed by false accusations? I do not think that is what you are saying, but if we are overly concerned about false rape accusations, then legitimate cases will suffer.

    • 2 votes
    #12.22 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:38 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Wheel,

    That's what parenting is all about -- having those hard talks despite the discomfort and embarrassment. I had a bit of an advantage when it came to those discussions. Since my husband was a doctor and his office was in our home, the kids were around anatomically correct models and posters from the time they were little. When questions arose we just treated them like we would a patient only in language they could understand. Surprisingly, both my son and my daughter talked with us before they made that life changing decision.

    • 3 votes
    #12.23 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:40 PM EDT
    TheView FromHere

    Carol - See how frustrating it is to have to deny something you NEVER said?

    I am saying that all rape accusations should be properly evaluated before an arrest is made.

    As am I, but by declaring you believe false accusations are rare you are defaulting to the woman in your "evaluation". The lowered standard of proof, "preponderance of the evidence" has allowed innocent men to be sent to jail and lives/careers destroyed based on uncorroborated accusations. ALL of my posts have been comments on this tragedy. Please read this excellent article on the disastrous effects of the VAWA laws.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=321181#ixzz1RttRPNHs

    I do appreciate good debate/discussion and joined this thread to point out that in the past 2 decades that false accusations, as in the DSK case, have been allowed to take root in a justice system that has had the standard of proof lowered so far that now the accusation ALONE is enough to imprison and ruin the accused. It is a miscarriage of justice, a distortion of the premise innocent until proven guilty and needs to be addressed in legal reform.

    • 3 votes
    #12.24 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:29 AM EDT
    margaret-1186258

    Donna, no apology necessay. Takes a lot more than an opposing view to insult me;) No, no, it's just that I hear that trite little phrase from various depts of education, as though parents are incompetent for the task! I even remember when the schools broadened their mission in the 70s. I knew they were wrong then; time has proven me right. But that's "a whole 'nuther" topic.

    Sex ed in school will do nothing to prevent rape, or false accusations; anymore than it has affected the teen pregnancy rate. . . . .

    • 3 votes
    #12.25 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:09 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    margaret,

    Your last sentence is so true that it breaks my heart to even read it. Have a wonderful and safe weekend!

    • 2 votes
    #12.26 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:21 AM EDT
    Wheel

    ummm, sex ed, including access to and knowledge of the use of, birth control devices most certainly do affect the teen pregnancy rate. What does NOT affect the teen pregnancy rate is Abstinence only education. Abstinence only is Bull@!$%#.

    • 4 votes
    #12.27 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:39 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Sex ed in school is only truly effective if it is reinforced at home. Basic information serves a purpose but unless parents are willingly to talk the real talk -- the kind schools have to avoid due to outside pressure -- the message will go in one ear and out the other. Sex education needs to be taught in harsh terms with a heavy emphasis on how it can and will change a life -- negatively for the most part.

    I am in total agreement that abstinence education isn't worth a damn!

    • 2 votes
    #12.28 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:35 AM EDT
    Carol-99

    I do appreciate good debate/discussion and joined this thread to point out that in the past 2 decades that false accusations, as in the DSK case, have been allowed to take root in a justice system that has had the standard of proof lowered so far that now the accusation ALONE is enough to imprison and ruin the accused.

    The DSK case has not been dismissed. There are allegations that the maid lied about her past and what happened immediately after the attack, but not about the attack itself.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/12/dsk-court-date-delay_n_895426.html

    Prosecutors haven't raised questions about the veracity of her account of the alleged attack itself, but the revelations could make the 32-year-old maid a difficult witness for jurors to believe, experts say.

    I have repeatedly said that false accusations are wrong and devastating to the accused. I even conceded that I was wrong to say that they were rare. I think that everyone agrees that legal system needs reform.

    • 1 vote
    #12.29 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:37 AM EDT
    Carol-99

    No, no, it's just that I hear that trite little phrase from various depts of education, as though parents are incompetent for the task!

    As Wheel mentioned, the alarmingly high rate of teen pregnancies indicates that many parents are incompetent for the task. Parents should teach sex education at home, but many are not doing such a good job.

    • 3 votes
    #12.30 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
    Wheel

    As Wheel mentioned, the alarmingly high rate of teen pregnancies indicates that many parents are incompetent for the task. Parents should teach sex education at home, but many are not doing such a good job.

    The most important part is:

    sex ed, including access to and knowledge of the use of, birth control devices(The Pill, condoms, diaphrams, etc.) most certainly do affect the teen pregnancy rate. What does NOT affect the teen pregnancy rate is Abstinence only education. Abstinence only is Bull@!$%#.

    That's where the home part comes in, make sure your teen not only is knowledgeable about birth control (including abstinence, it's not a bad idea, just anti-survival). For my boys that included make sure they knew about birth control devices, how to use them and had access to them. I bought condoms and put them in their dresser.

    I'll never forget the day, I was 17 and it was just before I went in the Navy, when my mother found a condom in my laundry! I've always been bad about forgetting to empty my pockets. Alicia gets on me about it all the time. :) Well, my mom was a serious church going lady and she still thought of me as her 'baby'. It's was an embarrassing talk, more for her than for me I think.

    • 3 votes
    #12.31 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:02 PM EDT
    gmross

    Do what I did, teach your girls to protect themselves and then when the boy shows up at your house, meet with him while your cleaning your guns, and ask him, "What are your intentions with my daughter boy?" By the way all of my daughters are married now and have kids.

    • 2 votes
    #12.32 - Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:43 PM EDT
    Reply
    etva

    Excellent article, as always, Donna. I'll only add that these cases often result in people assuming that false accusations happen all the time. Suddenly we see people saying how "common" it is for this to happen, and it affects people's response to real victims, who are often afraid to report the crime.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#13 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:43 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    The View:

    Yes, there are false accusation involved in custody disputes, etc. However, if you really want to read some harrowing stories about children used as pawns, please visit:

    http://www.familylawcourt.com/

    • 2 votes
    Reply#14 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:05 PM EDT
    TheView FromHere

    That site is an excellent example of how the Family Law system has now been taken over by a self interested cadre of treatment providers and legal tacticians. The incredible bias against the man in any custody dispute is protected in the 'best interest of the children" mantra that always involves differing to the woman/mother's choice. The percentages of men ripped from their childrens lives by financial ruin and relocation litigation reveal the effects of the Family Law system's bias. In response to the historical disadvantages and abuse of women in the legal system, an environment of feminist vengeance and preferred status for all mothers has taken charge. I have sat for many days in the Family Law system, watched arrogant magistrates legislate disdain to the man and simper pleasantly to the woman at the opposing microphone.

    • 3 votes
    #14.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:28 PM EDT
    Reply
    Village Idiot-2299796

    Rape Should Be Decriminalized ...

    Remember the service women in Iraq that Haliburton 'Catch-22ed?'

    And why is nothing said when rape is used as a form of ethnic cleansing in the Sudan and DR Congo?

    Moreover, many in our society defend the use of torture. Why would such a society not defend kidnappings, extra-judicial killings and ... yes, rape?

    The abuses that we tolerate elsewhere penetrate inevitably back into our own society. Of course, the decriminalization of rape is an heinous proposal. But as civilizations descend into barbarism as we are, the real question is, 'on what basis would an increasingly arbitrary and lawless society criminalize rape at all?'

    Idiot alert! This is NOT advocating legalization of rape; this post is offered as a broader critique of societal disintegration such as is attested in the concerns of this article.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#15 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:15 PM EDT
    margaret-1186258

    Saw a few comments about the "got me drunk" excuse. You know something? I actually remember when this became SOP. Let me take you back to the 70s, the feel good era; you're okay, I'm okay; You can have it all, baby; It's time for women to find their own sexuality (like none of us knew where it was pre-1969!). It was all out then. I was a divorced, 20-something single mom, living in an apartment complex filled with married women--husband, 1 child, saving for a down payment, planning the second child (I became the complex baby-sitter for couples' night out!).

    All these women suddenly decided I had the good life (I wasn't even dating!) Within 18 months, each was divorced or planning to, coming to me for how to get the best deal (don't ask me; I turned down child support!). Anyway, suddenly everyone's single; it's time for girls' night out (Fridays back then). It was amazing. . .

    These women would regularly go out, get drunk, have a one-night-stand, and the next day, "OMG, I never would have done that if he hadn't kept buying me drinks! Such a jerk!" Of course, the behavior was oft-repeated, so the excuse wore thin. Comes the subtle change, suddenly these guys were rapists, even though the women were willing participants; they didn't have to accept the drinks, but they did; they already knew the danger of what over-imbibing does to their inhibitions, but still they got drunk! Finally, one day, I just had to "call 'em" on it. Said straight out, "The problem here is you want to have sex. But you don't want to be accountable for your actions. You go out, pick up a guy, deliberately get drunk to loosen your inhibitions, let him have his way with you. Next day, it's just a case of buyer's remorse. No more! no more coffee klatches while you girls bear your souls within earshot of your kids at my dining room table. Stop getting drunk or wear a chastity belt and leave the key here! Enough already."

    I saw this behavior for years! Drove me nuts! Probably what changed me from a feminist to a masculist(?!), masculinist(?!). Today, for me to believe a rape, you better have pretty convincing evidence that a man attacked you for the sole purpose of degrading, controlling, and injuring you. If rape is not about sex, but about control; well, you better be able to convince me you actually had no other option!

    Don't attack, I can be convinced. . . really, I can. But if someone's acting the faux victim, I call 'em on it! Even one decent guy, skewered by a self-pitying fool, is one too many.

    Note: child abuse, of course, is "a whole 'nuther story."

    • 4 votes
    Reply#16 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:24 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    And again I ask, "Where were you last week when I was turned into chopped liver on Loretta Kemsley's post on rape?" LOL

    • 2 votes
    #16.1 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:42 PM EDT
    margaret-1186258

    Good heavens! I missed that (darned family!!)

    • 2 votes
    #16.2 - Fri Jul 8, 2011 7:10 PM EDT
    Reply
    bigsaf

    There's also the dire circumstances and grave misunderstanding of where someone was raped but that person identified or wrongly accused someone else as the rapist.

    While that ends as a false allegation, that erroneous mistake has happened and I wouldn't necessarily hold it against the person who was raped misidentifying and having the false conviction of who hurt him/her and don't consider that false identification as being deliberate as to be as bad as rape or treasonous.

    Anyhowz...

    Strauss-Kahn faces Tristane Banon rape allegation

    And as of the DSK issue, I don't doubt the maid's account.

    Novelist, Tristan Banon came forward in France with her allegations, where she had made the claim even before the NY incident.

    Also a DSK description in one 2006 book, would warrant some sort of investigation, which doesn't prove guilt, but does raise serious questions on what they meant exactly and whether they were downplaying the seriousness of what this entailed.

    2006: Publication of Sexus Politicus, book by Christophe Deloire and Christophe Dubois, with chapter on Mr Strauss-Kahn and his tendency of "seduction to the point of obsession"

    • 2 votes
    #17 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 12:12 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    There is no denying the man is a sleaze, but if he did try to rape Tristan Banon, why did she wait until now to come forward. Actually, playing devil's advocate here -- how to you "try" to rape someone. My daughter is a strong, far from petite young woman. She fought her attacker and wound up looking like the elephant man as a result. Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen but if women don't take rape seriously enough to prosecute no matter who their assailant is, why should anyone else?

    This is much like this week's Casey Anthony trial: we all believe she was complicit in the death of her daughter. Where's the proof? You can't prosecute on emotion or because your gut tells you so.

    Nothing, least of all shame, should stop a woman from coming forward if she is raped. There are advocates in every major city all over the world who will stand by them and help them through the rough spots. Is it easy? No way! Is it necessary? Absolutely!

    • 1 vote
    #17.1 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 8:49 AM EDT
    bigsaf

    how to you "try" to rape someone.

    I understand you're playing devil's advocate.

    There are some cases where the survivor was lucky enough to escape and an attempt at rape was unsuccessful. In short, unsuccessful rape attempts happen, be it through a quick kick to the groin and a quick run or a weapon at hand and used. The rapist tries, but fails. The survivor may also escape further violence in the fight back, but most cases, sadly do not.

    So I am not skeptical in Banon's assertion of DSK 'try to rape' (though I may have to reread, as I believe she claims to actually have been raped. I maybe wrong)

    Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen but if women don't take rape seriously enough to prosecute no matter who their assailant is, why should anyone else?

    While there's no substitute to the survivor's will power, for example like Mukhtar Mai of Pakistan, however I would like to point out, it takes a village or community to step up to the plate and take rape seriously - which in her case absolutely failed, including the Pakistan Supreme Court who based their decision on retarded and sexist line of thinking.

    So while a survivor may either have weak or strong conviction, the society MUST always take this seriously and everything into account.

    While I agree, women survivors should take rape seriously enough to prosecute, let us not leave it or let it rest and make it the onus on the survivor only. Even if they don't take it seriously enough, the rest of us should, or if they do take it seriously, we should match it instead of withdrawing.

    Of course, as you said, this is all easier said than done.

    While I'm sorry to hear what you and your daughter endured, I like to thank you for sharing those experiences. You know probably better than most of us that it certainly not as black and white as we like to believe.

    I hope you and LK can get over your differences. While I may not agree with every seed of hers, and perhaps a few points in your own article, I've learned a lot from it and see that both of you share the same goals to advocate for the survivors and victims out there as well as our overall rights.

    • 3 votes
    #17.2 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 4:45 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    As in so many instances, interpretation is everything. When I read that the reporter asserted that DSK tried to rape her in a hotel room, all I could think of was my own daughter, who is 5'10" and in great shape due to frequent trips to the gym. She tried to fight off her assailant but he only laughed saying, "You must have taken self defense. Won't do you any good." And then he punched her. DSK is a large man. The journalist is a small woman. Sorry but I had to raise the question. Now, I'll wait for the media to reveal the answer.

    I cannot speak to the mindset of countries other than the United States. Certainly there are still far too many cultures that regard women as less than human. Here in the United States every city has some type of facility to help women cope with the trauma of rape. There are support groups all over the country and thousand of survivors speaking out and offering assistance -- encouraging all women to come forward, stand tall and prosecute! prosecute! prosecute!

    Yes, it takes great courage to face a rapist in court, but trust me, it is no where near as frightening as the actual rape. You said that society must take this seriously and, of course, they must, but how can society take it seriously if women continue to hide in the shadows. I don't want to keep bringing my daughter up like she's some kind of role model (although she actually is) but she allowed her name, face (beaten and looking like the Elephant Man) and situation to be broadcast on television and in the media. She was determined to show women they had nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to be ashamed of and she and I continue to preach that message every day. Society will only realize how traumatic rape is when they begin to see its effects on a continuing basis.

    I will continue to hope (and believe) the strong voices such as your own will continue to be raised in support of victims of violent crime -- all crime -- and that with time respect for all of humanity will become much like the air we breath. In other words, without oxygen we die. Without respect, sadly we die as well.

    Thanks for reading and commenting.

    • 1 vote
    #17.3 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 5:53 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    Here in the United States every city has some type of facility to help women cope with the trauma of rape. There are support groups all over the country and thousand of survivors speaking out and offering assistance -- encouraging all women to come forward, stand tall and prosecute! prosecute! prosecute!

    However, the criminal justice system does not always seem to take rape cases as seriously as other crimes. The process of collecting a rape kit is invasive, and then they may not be tested until a year later.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/opinion/30kristof.html?em

    “If you’ve got stacks of physical evidence of a crime, and you’re not doing everything you can with the evidence, then you must be making a decision that this isn’t a very serious crime,” notes Polly Poskin, executive director of the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault.

    Some women still feel that reporting a rape would hurt their own reputations.

    http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/a-reason-not-to-report-rape/

    Look through the comments, both here on the blog and beside the column, and you see women who, particularly if they had been drinking or were assaulted by an acquaintance, felt that to report a rape would be to injure their own reputations without achieving anything. And after reading that rape kits often aren’t tested promptly, they felt vindicated.

    • 2 votes
    #17.4 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:59 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    I don't want to keep bringing my daughter up like she's some kind of role model (although she actually is) but she allowed her name, face (beaten and looking like the Elephant Man) and situation to be broadcast on television and in the media.

    I am so sorry that your daughter had to endure the rape, and I admire her courage in allowing her picture to published in the media. However, a woman should not have to be "beaten and looking like the Elephant Man" in order for her case to be taken seriously. Until the 1970's the laws required that a rape victim’s “resistance was required to be active and to the utmost of her ability”. There was a resistance requirement in order for a man to be convicted of a rape. The current laws do not have this requirement.

    http://www.sagepub.com/lippmanccl2e/study/articles/Daane.pdf

    Feminists attacked the resistance requirement for rape victims during the 1970’s. By this time, studies indicated that victim resistance in sexual attack tended to escalate the violence by the attacker. Victims were essentially in a position of submitting to the rape to save their lives, with very little chance of successful prosecution, or resisting the rape and risking death in order to prosecute the rapist. The first major victory for rape reform advocates came in Michigan in 1975 (Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 1975). Michigan’s reform statute not only abolished the requirement that the victim resist her attacker, it also nearly eliminated all reference to the conduct of the victim.

    If your physically fit 5'10" daughter was unable to fit off her attacker, then it is unlikely that smaller woman could do so, especially if he has a weapon.

    • 3 votes
    #17.5 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:31 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Carol,

    My daughter's case was not taken seriously because of the extent to which she was beaten. She was very lucky -- I will admit that -- that we live in an area where all law enforcement, including the State's Attorney's Office take crime, all crime, very seriously. Additionally, the fact that she was willing to put her identity on the line helped to make their jobs easier and put her attacker away for life. I know that many small cities do not have the resources that big cities can offer, but there are so many outside agencies that will stand beside a victim and help them through.

    Your last sentence says exactly what I pointed out in regard to the most recent charges against DSK. The reporter who now claims to have been attacked in a hotel room but fought him off -- she is smaller or about the same size as my daughter. I may be mistaken but I believe she said DSK "tried" to rape her. Immediately my antennae go up. Big man/small woman -- would not her fate have been sealed?

    Listen, I'm not trying to undermine the truth. I WANT THE TRUTH! If a man rapes a woman, he should be put in prison for life -- not the second or third time, but from the first assault. However, if a man is falsely accused of rape for whatever reason, we all -- men and women -- suffer the consequences.

    Lies make it easier for real rapists to continue raping and harder for victims to get justice.

    I also want to make it clear that there is no right or wrong way to react when being assaulted. Each attack/attacker is different. Fighting back could do more harm than good or it could save a life. Only in that moment, when their life is on the line, can a person decide what to do -- and then the outcome is still 50/50. My hope is that the day will come when no one will ever have to back that kind of a decision.

    • 2 votes
    #17.6 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:16 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    I also want to add that, with so much attention focused on how long it takes to process a rape kit, it is even more important that women contact the police immediately after an assault. The rape kit was never used or even processed in my daughter's case. There were so many other places from which evidence was gathered, that the kit was not necessary to prove guilt.

    Time is of the essence! That is why women must come forward -- not the next day, week or year -- but immediately if they hope to put a rapist behind bars.

    • 2 votes
    #17.7 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:38 AM EDT
    Carol-99

    Time is of the essence! That is why women must come forward -- not the next day, week or year -- but immediately if they hope to put a rapist behind bars.

    I agree that rape victims should report their attacks as soon as possible. One of the reasons that women are reluctant to report a rape is that police officers, who may not have had proper training in dealing with rape cases, often blame or otherwise mistreat the victims.

    http://thecurvature.com/2010/06/04/rape-victims-tell-of-mistreatmet-by-the-nypd/

    Elizabeth Pressman, one victim who was profiled in the Times piece and consented to being named, said the following when reflecting on her own awful experience:

    “If I were to speak to a woman about reporting a rape, I would say: ‘Don’t put yourself through it. Don’t put yourself through the humiliation and the abuse,’ ” said Ms. Pressman, whose father is the veteran television newsman Gabe Pressman. “It’s horrific what the cops do to you. It’s not worth it. Be ready to be raped a second time.”

    • 1 vote
    #17.8 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:34 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    I can only speak about the people who handled my daughter's case -- every single one of them was wonderful. If you have not read the account of her assault, please do so. "Assault on An Angel - A Rape Victim's Story" can be found on newsvine and just about everywhere else on the net. You will see that we have come a long way in our treatment of rape victims. Yes, we have a way to go in some areas of this country and in the world but not reporting a rape is not the solution!

    I have often said that appearing in court and facing her attacker was for my daughter almost like being raped again. However, she knew that if she didn't, someone else would be raped. We will never change the "process," if we don't face it head on. Every advance that mankind (and womankind) has made has come at great sacrifice -- but we will get nowhere without it.

    • 2 votes
    #17.9 - Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:07 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    I just read "Assault on An Angel - A Rape Victim's story, and I encourage others to do so. The fact that the trial took two years to complete is one of the reasons that women do not want to report a rape. Your daughter had the support of family and friends, and she was fortunate that the detective, police officers, victims advocates, Assistant State's Attorney, and judge all took her case seriously and handled it compassionately. Why does an investigation and trial have to take that long?

    http://skirt.com/donna-carbone/blog/assault-angel-rape-victims-story

    • 2 votes
    #17.10 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:35 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    Carol:

    Thank you for reading "Assault." I hope you came away realizing that we all must take personal responsibility for our own safety. Please spread the word that constant awareness of our surroundings is a must if we are to survive.

    The reason this case took so long is because the defense attorneys continually asked for delays and filed nonsense paperwork, which the court must act on. My daughter's assailant hired private attorneys first and then resorted to public defenders before we actually got to trial. No one wanted the case! The private attorneys, once they realized the family didn't have the money to pay for an exorbitant defense, walked away with their retainer. The public defenders office was in the midst of reorganization so there were additional delays.

    As I wrote in "Assault," the criminal justice system is not the most well oiled wheel, but it does work if the justly wronged are willing to work with it. My daughter attended every hearing -- and there were many... MANY -- during that two year period. She made sure that her attacker knew that no matter how many roadblocks he tried to put before her, she would find her way around, over, under, whatever it took to put him away. Too many victims get tired of the process and they buckle under to the pressure to allow for a plea deal. We can't continue to let that happen. Five, ten, fifteen years for rape is not enough. Not even 25 years is enough. Life and nothing less -- or the legitimate statistics will keep rising!

    • 1 vote
    #17.11 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:27 AM EDT
    Carol-99

    The reason this case took so long is because the defense attorneys continually asked for delays and filed nonsense paperwork, which the court must act on.

    Why must the court allow defense attorneys to file nonsense paperwork?

    • 1 vote
    #17.12 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:15 AM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    That's the system we hold so dear! Remember that a court case is not about justice. It's about who gets the win and, thereby, boosts his/her status and asking price.

    • 2 votes
    #17.13 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:47 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    Yes, it seems to be more about who can buy the best lawyer than it is about justice.

    • 3 votes
    #17.14 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:20 PM EDT
    Donna Carbone

    The gift of gab (defense attorneys) comes at a high price!

    I am not knocking defense attorneys. I may need one some day. However, I have always felt that the defense's job should be more about getting the proper punishment for the crime and less about getting the guilty off.

    • 2 votes
    #17.15 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:45 PM EDT
    Carol-99

    I have always felt that the defense's job should be more about getting the proper punishment for the crime and less about getting the guilty off.

    That may be true for most defense attorneys, but the ones that tend to make the news seem to be more concerned with legal fees.

    • 3 votes
    #17.16 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:49 PM EDT
    Reply
    Door King

    When don't they?

      Reply#18 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:25 AM EDT
      researchdiva

      To Mike Rupert: Would you clarify you comment please? I get it that you understand rape is a bigger problem than most people are aware. My concern is you frankly mentioned that most men would rape an attractive women if they thought they could get away with it. What men? It kind of sounds like you know some. In what field are they employed?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#19 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 3:50 PM EDT
      Mike Rupert

      Researchdiva, you know some of these men. We all know some of these men. And they're employed in every field. Surely you know this. Any other questions you're welcome to ask.

      • 1 vote
      #19.1 - Sat Jul 9, 2011 6:06 PM EDT
      Reply
      KYPIAKOC

      Excellent piece, you are doing a great thing advocating on this issue.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#20 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:59 PM EDT
      Donna Carbone

      Thank you! I consider it a privilege to be get to know and work with and on behalf of these women. Their strength is something we should all aspire to in the face of tragedy.

      • 1 vote
      #20.1 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:42 PM EDT
      Reply
      Freedom Writer-801740

      IMO if prosecutors were as eager to prosecute the false report filings than they are to leap to guilty before proven innocent then these things wouldnt happen as often. but with that said sometimes the evidence if meager even though a woman was legitimately raped and that leaves burden of proof on a traumatized individual.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#21 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:00 PM EDT
      Baron von Steuben

      that leaves burden of proof on a traumatized individual.

      Yes it does, but innocent until proven guilty is the way our system works. It's better than being dragged before a judge who says "okay, prove you didn't rape her". Guilty until proven innocent is a sure fire way to destroy our system of law.

      • 2 votes
      #21.1 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:04 PM EDT
      Freedom Writer-801740

      yes our system is definitely not perfect, especially when it comes to our sex crimes laws.

      • 2 votes
      #21.2 - Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:08 PM EDT
      Reply
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